Oh heck. Assassins. (Mesmer thread.)

[Siren]

Max, no worries. I wasn't really talking about your posts anyway. You're in the clear, don't worry. It's just that some other people here seemed really snide, and seems like they're just trolling up the Assassin forums, too. Those were the kinds of posts I was referring to, because they're not really talking about counters; they're just being dickish. And really, nobody needs that crap in any sub-forum here, whether it be new classes or older ones.

It's ironic, really. I think the people here cutting down those excited about Assassin builds should take a look at their old screenshots from their very first BWEs and see how horrible their Mesmer skill-sets looked. I'm positive those were nothing short of atrocious.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet even the brand-spanking-new Assassin and Rit builds look far better than the schlock of pre-retail Mesmers, because those A and Rit builds are being designed by players who have a year's worth of combat experience under their belt, regardless of what profession they've been playing.

And really, for essentially completely new professions, I think many of the A and Rit builds we're seeing are pretty damn impressive. I have no problem with Mesmers posting counters (I specialize in Mesmer and Necro currently, so I'm also considering counters to A and Rit). But what I do have a problem with is the dickish tone I'm seeing in some of the posts here. Posting counters is one thing. Making dweebish and snide comments is something entirely different.

[LightningHell]

To all, I apologize for generalizing.

But it does seem to me the Assassin is what the W/Mo was.

After all, I don't like people who act like a total jerk in-game.

[Siren]

What the W/Mo was? Pre-retail, you could see the same "OMG!! I can't wait to try this!!" kinds of builds for virtually any combination people could think of, including W/Mo.

If you mean how the generalized, cliche W/Mo acts today, then I don't really think there's even a correlation between the Assassin build-makers' excitement regarding build design and the morons who think full Knight's armor gives them more protection and that a Fiery Dragon Sword is the only way to go, heh.

The W/Mo delusion of being invincible is nothing more than grabbing the sturdiest class in the game and combining it with a Monk secondary. You can do damage. You can heal yourself. You can swing big weapons.

The Assassin idea of being invincible, however, while probably mis-guided, is not anything close to the W/Mo, because if anything, Assassins are one of the weakest, least durable professions in the game, and I think it's completely reasonable for people to be excited about coming up with a combination of skills that appears to mitigate how fragile Assassins are.

And who knows, those builds might be completely devastating come retail. Blind will always counter physical damage. Inept, same deal. In a 1v1 scenario, Mesmers will always have the edge, provided they're specced correctly.

But that spec largely depends on their opposition not having proper support.

So that's why I think hating on the Assassin forums is a bit lame. Assassins will have the same hex and cond removal that Warriors have now. And I'd think hex and cond removal for Assassins will take priority over them for a Warrior.

[LightningHell]

I do not hate Assassins, don't you worry. I hate the people playing them.

Come off it, I use daggers in real life martial arts training.

[Francis Demeules]

I dont care If you choose to play assassin, ritualist, mesmer, warrior, etc. What I care the most is the player who plays these professions. Im not a guy who is a profession's hater. Yes, assassin is new. We have yet to see the full potential on what an assassin can do during the Beta's weekend. This thread is looks like a brainstorming to prepare to face assassin when Faction comes out. Same thing for the Ranger's forum. Its just a preparation when the time will comes.

[Siren]

Lightning, you're missing my point. There is zero reason at all to hate the Assassin players. That's what I've been saying all along. The comparison to a W/Mo is short-sighted and myopic. It ignores the fundamental differences between the player reactions in W/Mo versus Assassin. I've explained those fundamental player-base differences in my previous post.

I've also explained that there's a distinct difference between brainstorming counters and the dickish nature of a few of these posts. If you really want to see what I'm talking about, zip on over to the Assassin forums and check out some responses which are certainly not just about counters. They're trolling for negative responses. lol

Some may argue I'm just nothing more than a troll here, but there's a clear and logical reason why I'm replying. The same cannot be said for the posts and posters in question.

[Ninetail Trickster]

OMG I created a successful thread. o_o
Containing an intelligent argument. o_o;
And I haven't been flamed yet. o_o;;
Thought: If assassins are the new (stereotypical spoiled brat) wammo, can we manipulate their psychology? Dumb things are easy to trick...
Mesmer: -equips bow-
Assassin: Easy target. -Shadow Refuge-
Mesmer: -Drain Enchantment- -hexhexhexhexhex-
Assassin: -attack-
Allied Warrior: -picks off the easy kill-

[Francis Demeules]

Originally Posted by Ninetail Trickster

Mesmer: -equips bow-
Assassin: Easy target. -Shadow Refuge-
Mesmer: -Drain Enchantment- -hexhexhexhexhex-
Assassin: -attack-
Allied Warrior: -picks off the easy kill-

1) Equips bow? What do you think? IW with bow? Nah!
2) Why Drain Enchantment, Shatter it because they heal after Shadow Refuge. If they have that elite Shadow step under this enchantment is a waste. Shadow Step, strip enchantment and go away!

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Siren

Lightning, you're missing my point. There is zero reason at all to hate the Assassin players. That's what I've been saying all along. The comparison to a W/Mo is short-sighted and myopic. It ignores the fundamental differences between the player reactions in W/Mo versus Assassin. I've explained those fundamental player-base differences in my previous post.

I was just..."trolling"...because most of the Assassins I faced are idiots who like bashing their opponents and leaving suddenly because their team has a slight fault. I've only been cussed at in 1337, by an Assassin. Of course, that's generalizing, but I'm not inclined to be kind to them.

Originally Posted by Siren

I've also explained that there's a distinct difference between brainstorming counters and the dickish nature of a few of these posts. If you really want to see what I'm talking about, zip on over to the Assassin forums and check out some responses which are certainly not just about counters. They're trolling for negative responses. lol

I don't think I'm there...good grief.

Originally Posted by Siren

Some may argue I'm just nothing more than a troll here, but there's a clear and logical reason why I'm replying. The same cannot be said for the posts and posters in question.

You are certainly not a troll here. In fact, you have...somewhat...earned people's respect by doing so.

[Siren]

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I was just..."trolling"...because most of the Assassins I faced are idiots who like bashing their opponents and leaving suddenly because their team has a slight fault. I've only been cussed at in 1337, by an Assassin. Of course, that's generalizing, but I'm not inclined to be kind to them.

Maybe I can change your impression of Assassin players then?

I don't think I'm there...good grief.

So you see the problems. Some of that crap just shouldn't be allowed to be posted, I think.

You are certainly not a troll here. In fact, you have...somewhat...earned people's respect by doing so.

Heh, good to know.

As a sidenote, I didn't mean to derail this thread or anything, it's just that I saw some really lame stuff being said in the Assassin forums, and I wanted to see if it was being said in the Mesmer forum. Sure enough, it was, so I'd prefer if players kept the snide comments free of the counters discussions. I know I'd appreciate it, and I'm pretty sure the Assassin forum would appreciate it, too.

I guess the idea here is...let's work with each other so we can work against each other? ~_^

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Siren

Maybe I can change your impression of Assassin players then?

Sure, why not.

Originally Posted by Siren

Heh, good to know.

As a sidenote, I didn't mean to derail this thread or anything, it's just that I saw some really lame stuff being said in the Assassin forums, and I wanted to see if it was being said in the Mesmer forum. Sure enough, it was, so I'd prefer if players kept the snide comments free of the counters discussions. I know I'd appreciate it, and I'm pretty sure the Assassin forum would appreciate it, too.

Good to know.

Our main point is that the Assassins that are being churned out right now aren't enough to change our build, though.

Originally Posted by Siren

I guess the idea here is...let's work with each other so we can work against each other? ~_^

[Avarre]

Well... I inherently don't like most assassin characters.

Back in d2... 99.95% of assassins were named something like 'TRAPURASSLOL', thinking they were so clever with that name. That's kinda carried over... assassins have the 'cool' factor that was previously with wars, and thats going to carry over a few awesome assassins, and alot of chaff.

Originally Posted by Siren

I know I'd appreciate it, and I'm pretty sure the Assassin forum would appreciate it, too.

I'd prefer they didn't get information. The purpose of this thread is how to make assassins DIE, not to tell them exactly how to defend themselves from us

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Our main point is that the Assassins that are being churned out right now aren't enough to change our build, though.

And more importantly, never will be. People run Edenial in HA - thats mainly geared to caster shutdown, not warriors as much (which often target them). That won't change significantly in factions, though perhaps some /Me's will bring shackles to hamper the little armorless people running around with knives.

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Avarre

Well... I inherently don't like most assassin characters.

Back in d2... 99.95% of assassins were named something like 'TRAPURASSLOL', thinking they were so clever with that name. That's kinda carried over... assassins have the 'cool' factor that was previously with wars, and thats going to carry over a few awesome assassins, and alot of chaff.

Well, you'd be happy my Assassin was called...wait, what was it called...ShadowLight. Half Martial Arts, too.

I also agree that Assassins sound cool and 1337, and so, many idiots play it. Not saying there aren't good ones.

[Siren]

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Our main point is that the Assassins that are being churned out right now aren't enough to change our build, though.

Well, when you consider what the typical WarHate Mesmer Illusion builds do, for example, they translate almost perfectly to AssHate. When they're specced to mitigate physical damage, any class and build dependent on physical damage will seem flawed. That's not a result of first-generation Assassin builds. It's more a result of particular Mesmer builds so far being able to be used almost universally. And that's something you'd see with virtually any melee-based class.

It's worth mentioning that unless Mesmers figure out a way to disable/break stances, whether through primary attributes or a secondary, they're going to find particular skills from Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts to be very painful. Some Assassin builds are already incorporating those skills.

Also, in order to effectively counter Assassins, you'll need to consider a 2:1 ratio. For every one Assassin, you'll need a Mesmer on him, and another Mesmer on their Monk, pretty much looking to interrupt the hex and cond removal only. Healing and Prot will largely be incidental, since Assassins have some nice skills to keep themselves alive; the trick to knocking them out will be hexes and conditions.

Against the Assassins themselves, spell and skill interrupts won't be enough to shut them down. Mesmers should already be getting creative. People are going to need better hex removal than CoP, Inspired, Shatter, etc, and likewise condition removal.

And the funny thing regarding the current first-gen Assassin builds is that often, the build doesn't matter. When the player is intelligent, the typical WarHate Illusion build isn't a game-winner. I guarantee that even the first-gen Assassin builds will be a threat when played well. Hell, even Fangs of Melandru is insanely powerful when the player knows what he or she is doing...and FoM is a pre-built R/A, heh.

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'd prefer they didn't get information. The purpose of this thread is how to make assassins DIE, not to tell them exactly how to defend themselves from us

But surely you're aware that the Assassin and Mesmer forums are all of two sub-forums away from each other? People are going to be reading up on whatever may pose a threat to them. If people are so concerned with secrecy, then they're not going to be posting builds, discussing counters, etc.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Siren

People are going to need better hex removal than CoP, Inspired, Shatter, etc, and likewise condition removal.

Thats why Anet gave us Expel Hexes!

But surely you're aware that the Assassin and Mesmer forums are all of two sub-forums away from each other? People are going to be reading up on whatever may pose a threat to them. If people are so concerned with secrecy, then they're not going to be posting builds, discussing counters, etc.

Only the intelligent ones, and they're already capable of being a threat

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Siren

Hell, even Fangs of Melandru is insanely powerful when the player knows what he or she is doing...and FoM is a pre-built R/A, heh.

Hell, many top guilds can own with 8 pallys.

[Hella Good]

Assassins are probably the easiest of the 3 fighter classes (warriors, rangers, assassins) to beat. Illusion magic totally anihilates them, and, of course, you can always do the good old never failing Wrack (or Shackwrack, if you feel like something more exotic). As a mesmer I completely ignore Assassins- I am more concerned with other mesmers and necros than a petty thing with two kitchen knives waving at my Distortion.

[Francis Demeules]

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'd prefer they didn't get information. The purpose of this thread is how to make assassins DIE, not to tell them exactly how to defend themselves from us

They're already know some informations but I prefer to keep my builds in mind. Anyway, almost all my builds keep in secrets (Except my friend who plays a mesmer too and we share our builds). And after checking the assassin skills, I can say my builds wont change a bit. So, I don't worry anymore about them. But I will glad to help those who worry about the "All and Mighty Assassins" (Just kidding). Off course players will check this thread to see what happens. For that, I don't care. They see it. They create a build to counter it. Mesmers see it. Mesmers try something else to counter it, etc. We can continue like this for eternity to try to counter in a counter, in a counter, in a counter............. This thread is not useless. It will be useless when players will be more experienced with these professions and you try by yourself.

[Avarre]

The power of the mesmer is to create a counter to which there is no counter.

As it is... I haven't seen much that makes the assassin dangerous :/ Conditions maybe, but an ally can handle that completely. I wouldn't be surprised to see assassins very high on the target-priority list, and even lower than mesmers on the PvE selection. They're gonna have a rough time...

[Siren]

Originally Posted by Hella Good

a petty thing with two kitchen knives waving at my Distortion.

You should read up on Assassin skills. We're going to be able to bypass Distortion pretty easily.

And Expel Hexes will only be able to do so much, Avarre. ~_^